Changelog (UPDATED 6/12/16)

Oldhaus wrote:

Just a suggestion, if the nerf on Dispel was a consequence of NPCs getting the ability to dispel, reduce the dispel base on NPCs and revert the nerfs on Dispel.

I don't feel it was a result of NPCs getting dispel, it was always too easy to just spam dispel on NPCs to run them out of mana, especially if they didn't have concentrate.

The current changes on gc have actually no impact on capacity to withstand stun in ice or uw pents. It still gets perma stunned on sight. 50 base immun and limited increase in h2h/str means nothing to be honest. Still garbage for ice/uw and still same funtionality outside of pents. Would suggest more buff or different buff.

I'm sad to see compulse limited to 3

jaigur wrote:

I'm sad to see compulse limited to 3

The issue with compulse now is not that its limited to three but that you cannot compulse another monster unless you transfer one which generally means you transfer all 3. It should replace one of the comped monsters instead. This is really poor design and really is the greatest issue with this nerf.

1. It is not a "nerf". It is an adjustment to a spell that has been made and like other changes will continue to be reviewed.
2. Just because you do not like it does not make it a "really poor design". It just means that you do not like the change. They are not the same thing.
3. "It should replace one of the comped monsters instead". That is a positive suggestion that I will consider. It was buried in the other comments so I almost missed it.

This is a very good example of a negative response (mine) to a negative response (the one above).
A positive response would have been to take the good suggestion about replacing an existing comp as say I would consider it.

To all contributors to the forum:
I realise that you are all passionate about the game and about the changes that are going on or that you think should be going on.
However, please try to keep the comments and suggestions positive and constructive. This does not mean that you need to agree with everything but just keep the language in a positive mode.
It is just basic psychology but people tend to turn off when negative comments are made and I am no different.
I have observed the impacts of negatives (including when I have made them) and would like to encourage you all to stay positive.
Keep the suggestions going but don't expect everything to be implemented your way just because you suggested it.

On the suggestion of replacing an existing comp NPC, which one should I replace.

1. The first one I find.
2. The last one I find (the third).
3. The oldest one (next one to auto die).
4. The one with the lowest saved kill exp points (can be transferred to the player).
5. The weakest ranked one (lowest total exp points)
6. Some other criteria.

My problem with Compulsion is still there. I feel that no race should be able to one shot kill NPcs around the same rank which is what compulsion does basically. I suggest take away the option to transfer compulsed NPCs or even put a time limit say 5 minutes on transferring. Am i the only one who sees it like that?

Asmodeus wrote:

jaigur wrote:

I'm sad to see compulse limited to 3

The issue with compulse now is not that its limited to three but that you cannot compulse another monster unless you transfer one which generally means you transfer all 3. It should replace one of the comped monsters instead. This is really poor design and really is the greatest issue with this nerf.

Can't we both agree it wasnt normal in the first place for a harakim to get 300comps sea golems in underwater pents without running out of mana? We both know compulsion needed some ajustement s if not removal.

I still think we should remove it and think of a better spell.

As for the recent gc changes:
I agree in u3 my gc was still garbage. Even as a general he was getting stunlock by colonels. In ice pents however if you c2 and dispel your gc they wont be able to curse and stun him back anymore. with that being said, he also destroyed the auto ml.

We both know we cant give harakims a templar. Right?

Lordlava wrote:

1. It is not a "nerf".  It is an adjustment to a spell that has been made and like other changes will continue to be reviewed.
2. Just because you do not like it does not make it a "really poor design".  It just means that you do not like the change.  They are not the same thing.
3. "It should replace one of the comped monsters instead".  That is a positive suggestion that I will consider.  It was buried in the other comments so I almost missed it.

This is a very good example of a negative response (mine) to a negative response (the one above).
A positive response would have been to take the good suggestion about replacing an existing comp as say I would consider it.

To all contributors to the forum:
I realise that you are all passionate about the game and about the changes that are going on or that you think should be going on.
However, please try to keep the comments and suggestions positive and constructive.  This does not mean that you need to agree with everything but just keep the language in a positive mode.
It is just basic psychology but people tend to turn off when negative comments are made and I am no different.
I have observed the impacts of negatives (including when I have made them) and would like to encourage you all to stay positive.
Keep the suggestions going but don't expect everything to be implemented your way just because you suggested it.

Well said, and thank you.

Zidane wrote:

Am i the only one who sees it like that?

Yes you are....

Actually I love the spell and used it all the time.
This is part of what led me to think it was over powered, plus what I observed others doing.

However I may be being just a little bit presumptuous when I said you were the only one who felt that way.

Zidane wrote:

My problem with Compulsion is still there. I feel that no race should be able to one shot kill NPcs around the same rank which is what compulsion does basically. I suggest take away the option to transfer compulsed NPCs or even put a time limit say 5 minutes on transferring. Am i the only one who sees it like that?

Umm... if Compulsion is gonna taken outta game, I would say Melee races should let go of Criticals to make it fair with the blue capes.

Warriors didn't have DW or any races didn't have Criticals in the old days, they have it now for a reason.

make some of the Criticals Instant kill and it would be more even, but i really wouldn't want that added.

Just an aside, we added the NOCOMPULSE flag so that in some circumstances we could make NPCs non compulsable and so avoid the instant kill scenario.
Similarly with the NOSTUN flag.
These are now options that the builder has available when designing a new area or redesigning an old one.

hmmm doesn't that tell you the skill is a bit over tops? if you need to make areas where it cant be used lol

Zidane wrote:

hmmm doesn't that tell you the skill is a bit over tops? if you need to make areas where it cant be used lol

Hence the nerf.

Just like B2 can't be used in LQ. We deal with it like always

Lordlava wrote:

On the suggestion of replacing an existing comp NPC, which one should I replace.

1. The first one I find.
2. The last one I find (the third).
3. The oldest one (next one to auto die).
4. The one with the lowest saved kill exp points (can be transferred to the player).
5. The weakest ranked one (lowest total exp points)
6. Some other criteria.

Would it be possible to make it so that if you cast comp on something you already control that one gets transferred?  Then you could pick and choose rather than trying to remember the system the game uses to do it for you.

I like what Bill said, casting compulse on a monster you already own will transfer it and it will transfer the exp to you (maybe at no mana cost?)
My next favorite is transferring the weakest monster when compulsing another.

I dont know which option is better, I would think lowest total exp but it might also be fair to go by lowest accumulated exp. I see advantages in both.

As for blast 2 in lqs not working, it is a bug not a feature. A bug that has persisted for a long time.

As for GC. If you don't make it worthwhile then don't waste your time. Nyan we had this discussion multiple times. If you need to c2 and dispel the gc for it to be useful, it is not useful in pents. Every dispel and potentially c2 is a b2c2 combo that is not cast and slows your overall exp gain. GC gets perma stunned and will continue to do so. So here is the deal, you make it strong enough to contribute in ice/uw or you stop modding it. High power gc survives in gargs despite its abyssmal h2h. You can use gc to "cheese" content including necro quest. So it is good enough right?

The thing that your comments ingame and out lack is the understanding that the overall balance of the race pre "nerf" is going down. Takes longer to cast spells (not really an issue), limit on compulsion which lowers overall power and pent speed and now we get 50immunity base and 5h2h base to compensate. So unless the skill called GC gets some sensibly powerful buff to make up for what was lost with compulsion, it is an overall nerf of the Harakim and sorceror races. Seeing how this game has consistently nerfed spellcasters of the years, you wonder why people still bother.

As for the positive comments, LL I fully understand what you are saying. I am a victim of passion for this game and I will at times turn aggressive especially when I feel like someone is going to ruin this game. It is generally not you but recent changes on characters have begun to bring that impression. You see, it is not important what you change... It is how you change it. You have very few admins/devs and you do not ask the general population beforehand. We find ourselves with changes over night. We then have to fight to prove our points against some people who attempt to justify their decisions by bringing you down or people that employ faulty logic (not you in both cases). Being told that something was changed because you can "cheese" 1% of the content makes me cringe and rightfully so.

We like transparancy, we like communication and sense of community. Not what we feel is the crusade of a sole person. Anyway thanks for the reply, I will try to keep it more positive. Obviously hard given my dispositions but will do it nonetheless.

I've never tested it,

but does B2 not work when clan fights are turned off?

We should try and run an LQ with clan fights on just to see if people can blast2

Just curious, would it be possible to remove some of the no_compulse flags since compulse is limited to 3? like in abandoned town?

I think with curse2 and poison you can do fine in AT.

Just a thought for your compulsion problem, what if you made compulsion a "mark spell" that marks a target for a certain time and when that target dies it re spawns as your compulse? This would remove the insta kill "problem" while still allowing a character with massive amount of mana to create an army if they were really dedicated. This would also keep col/brig AH out of ice pents with a inventory full of greps because they would have to actually kill an army of iceys to make an army. (honestly having an army in pents isn't all that much faster than straight b2/c2 penting and yields less exp so there really isnt an issue to using it.)

As for the dispel modification... can we all just agree someone has gotten power hungry and wants to make an unbeatable monster and therefore is doing everything they can to try and "fix" anything they think will give someone the ability to beat said monster? no one has ever in the history of the game complained about dispel or wished an npc would dispel them in the middle of the fight (sorry but this is way to strong for any monster fighting an AH unless they too are unspelled and wearing steel armor and a tit dagger with only 300 HP) why spend time on something that has worked just fine for so many years?

In my opinion there shouldn't be any nostun or nocomp monsters in the game, unless you also want to add some nocombat and nowarcry monsters as well... which you wouldn't do because you limit players by not allowing them to use the skills they worked so hard to level up. if you want someone to be hard to stun or comp give them more resistance I can honestly say I had a gen AH with 60 base stun because of how useless it was for higher level areas. But hey thats just my opinion, others might like that aspect of the game.

Just an observation to make as I've returned to this game only in the last week or two. Firstly, it's great to see an active dev team who are positively concerned and dedicated to keeping the game fresh and new and constantly changing. It's also great to see players who are still passionate about keeping this game balanced and fun.

I'm pretty shocked though at how some of the people here are treating the creative process. This isn't a game made JUST for you, these guys don't work for you and I for one am glad there is even a version of v2 still out there that is playable and generally pretty great.

Now, the difference in my perspective is that I haven't been playing for long, so I can understand when players who have invested a lot of time, constructive criticism and effort into creating their characters are upset with a change that affects the fundamentals of how they play. However, if you put yourself in the position of any of the people trying to balance and improve the game, imagine how they would feel after investing so much time into making things awesome for you, only for you to act like spoilt brats. I'm all for an open discussion and constructive criticism, but a few comments I've read in this thread particularly have made me cringe. There's no way you're going to get anything done unless you can put forward a logical argument with some humility. Which brings me to my next point:

Some of you have completely different opinions, eg, the compulse skill. A couple of people think it should be taken from the game altogether because it's too overpowered whereas others are demanding a boosting of other skills to compensate for compulsion being simply degraded. So just remember next time you post that a bit of compromise is going to be necessary if you want a change made. Whatever your opinion, someone is going to completely disagree, now think on how hard it is to make everyone happy as a developer when people feel so passionately both ways?

Anyway as LL said, everything is temporary, and if enough people speak up eloquently and without malice I'm guessing the outlier problems that are pissing loads of people off are going to be changed eventually, it's just that a few mistakes are going to be made along the way.

B2 fails in LQs because the caster can not hit the master.

Part of the B2 spell tests to see if a character is a companion or thrall etc. and if so then it tests to see if it is allowed to hit the master.

If not then the spell fails.

It is simple to remove this test however ...
1. B2 would then always try and hit GCs and companions and comps and thralls just like any other NPC.  I would have to investigate to see if I can differentiate between them.
2. B2 would then dominate mass executions in LQs.  Melee classes may rage at me (*hides*)

I am not sure this is a big enough issue to change but I do not feel strongly about it.

Yatana wrote:

 (honestly having an army in pents isn't all that much faster than straight b2/c2 penting and yields less exp so there really isnt an issue to using it.)

You forgot the part where comp penter presses twice as many pents and frustrates anyone else who happens to be penting at the time