RDV

RDV is always recruiting those of stout heart and mind.

Get with me

:/****

Oh Justinian, don't tell them about the tattoo yet.

Hows clan going?

Thrice wrote:

Hows clan going?

Pretty good I think. We are basically the only active one far as I can tell(active as in multiple people still logging in daily). Need a crafter though I think. 20k Plat in the bank and rising!

What's with the boot of everyone? We had a ton of stuff on the floor, every single member gets booted, and leader disappears.

Would ask admin if you wouldn't mind giving Cathy and I a trip to our hall to get some of our stuff. It's one thing to boot people that helped build things/a fortune in our clan rooms, but it's another thing when EVERYONE gets booted with no response, nor explanation. It's like Justin just "Vanished".

Who was the founder of RDV? There does not appear to be a current founder.

Clan issues are delicate ones and unfortunately can lead to problems.... sigh!

As a general rule we try to stay out of clan issues unless it involves breaking the rules.
Kicking everyone with no warning and then abandoning the game may be considered to be socially impolite and highlight other problems but does not constitute breaking the rules. He was a leader of the clan and exercised his powers as leader to kick other clan members.

He was online 5 days ago and has been very active this month but I have no information to indicate he has permanently quit the game or he may even have had valid reasons for doing what he did. I do recognise that he has also appeared to delete his forum account, which is not generally a good sign.

I do not have the power to make someone a clan member or the member of a specific clan.
To warp a player in to a clan hall where they are not a member is an unusual event and should only be considered under exceptional circumstances.
I can not see that these are exceptional circumstances at this stage. Have I missed something?

Nope, thanks for the response.

Good luck with clans and such. Will drop a bunch of gpots/godly gear/SS gear/Staffs/Brave scrolls in temple this evening for whomever wants it, I'm done.

Please don't Limitless, i got something for you.
Come at crossroads at night.
Come alone.

LL, with all due respect, we definitely need to come up with a resolution and quickly to these types of situations... you shouldn't be able to just kick everyone from a clan unless they're inactive or something. This will cause people to quit the game... which we can't afford.

I have a similar issue as my clan founder (Thug) logs in once a year to refresh his characters, and has been doing so for quite some time. I don't really have a problem with it since he is inactive but he could kick me anytime he wants, even though basically everything in the clan hall in it's current state are things I put there. I don't see him doing this but still, it's a concern.

It would appear justinian did quit the game and currently has no intentions on returning.

Motoko wrote:

LL, with all due respect, we definitely need to come up with a resolution and quickly to these types of situations... you shouldn't be able to just kick everyone from a clan unless they're inactive or something. This will cause people to quit the game... which we can't afford.

I have a similar issue as my clan founder (Thug) logs in once a year to refresh his characters, and has been doing so for quite some time. I don't really have a problem with it since he is inactive but he could kick me anytime he wants, even though basically everything in the clan hall in it's current state are things I put there. I don't see him doing this but still, it's a concern.

It would appear justinian did quit the game and currently has no intentions on returning.

This has been an issue since clans have been introduced. My own clan got raided by a bug abuser which led to have all the members being punished by not having their stuff back. Once that happened, a great deal of them quit out of pure anger. Staying out of clan affairs has NEVER brought anything positive. Instead we have 10 inactive-ish clans and barely any functionality other than free depot and teleport scrolls... Get involved! Any area that can make people ragequit should be taken seriously. Especially given the very low population.

Cathy has leader again now. No items were touched thus anyone with a room should feel free to ask her for a member tag or their things to be returned.

I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

Gambit wrote:

Cathy has leader again now. No items were touched thus anyone with a room should feel free to ask her for a member tag or their things to be returned.

I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

Thanks for doing the right thing.

Unfortunately it may be too late as limitless suicided both his characters multiple times and gave away most/if not all of his items. He also indicated that he was deleting his .moas.

The items can be replaced, but not if he isn't around to accept them.

With that being said, come back limitless!

Ok maybe we also need a process on how to resolve these sort of situations going forward as there have been a number of clan disputes in the past where mega grief has been caused for a number of players.

I am open to suggestions.

Historical context
Previously we have only stepped in where something illegal was done. This included bug abuse and repeated harassment. Suspected bug abuse has been investigated but this involves a serious amount of time trawling through logs. Where bug abuse or harassment has occurred, we have intervened and attempted to right the wrong (not always fully possible).

Where something was legal but unfair we have not intervened. At the minor end this included clan raiding with an alt (some may call it theft) and at the extreme end are incidents like this where a leader kicks everyone including other leaders (some may call this clan jacking).

In the rare cases where founders have gone and a clan has been left leaderless, a new leader has been appointed.

Where to from here?
Clans by their nature can be communal or adversarial and some people with prefer one or other style.

I am open to simple methods to keep both styles of play open while not having to set up an arbitration system (that involves huge amount of [my] time). hm... maybe a players' arbitration panel, chaired by a staffer but run by senior players.
State your case and counter case. Then the arbiter's vote.

Anyway, see if you can think of a simple, effective and fair system to resolve disputes (major and minor).

I reserve the right to actively intervene if bug abuse or harassment is suspected.

The biggest issue is that clans are more or less only a free depot, pvp is dead, platinum from kills is a moot reward, and pvp isn't balanced, and never has been, and most likely never will be...

The /transfer command really helps the whole clan issue, you can simply transfer items quickly between alts and not have to store items in a clan anymore.

Regardless... here are some ideas to help the clan issue of people kicking others and taking a clan for themselves:

1. Characters that have not been online for X amount of time in Y amount of days lose their leadership. I'd say if you haven't been online for 3 hours in the last 45 days you lose your leadership, even if you are the founder, the founder would then be transferred to whoever gets voted by the clan members of said clan. Leaders (but not founder) would be demoted to just a regular member (Rank 2)

2. Characters cant be kicked from a clan unless a minimum amount of time has elapsed (IE you can't invite someone to clan and then kick them 2 hours later)

3. Only one member can be kicked from a clan per X period of time (Maybe 1 every 6 hours).

4. Leaders can only be kicked by the founder AND another leader, meaning both must say "Fire motoko" - Granted the founder could have a leader alt in the clan as well.

5. Founders can be be removed if X members say "Fire motoko", 10 is probably good.

Apologies if these answers are sub-par, I have a cold and I'm pretty delirious.